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Nirodbaran narrated to Sri Aurobindo an incident that had taken place in Calcutta. The Mother was present during the narration. The incident concerned a girl of about ten or twelve. She belonged to a very well-known family and had visited the Ashram with her parents more than once. Now there was a tea-party in their sumptuous house. Many high-ranking people had been invited. The topic of the Ashram came up. Comments and criticisms started flying freely. Even the Mother and Sri Aurobindo were not spared. The child listened quietly. But when somebody seemed to overstep the limit of decency, she could stand it no longer. In a firm tone she said, "Look here, if you speak one more word about my Gurus, I'll give you such a slap that you'll tumble down." Everybody was stunned. The child's mamma left the room in shame and anger at the insult to her guests. Her uncle started looking at the ceiling in embarrassment, and to change the subject he started calling to the servants, "Hari, Ram, what a lot of dust is here!" Nirodbaran's story was enjoyed by all immensely. The Mother and Sri Aurobindo looked happy. Then the Mother left. SRI AUROBINDO: What this girl does is remarkable for her age. Along with strength of character she has developed an extra ordinary intelligence. When she used to write to us, she would make reflections about people and the world in general, which were beyond even a woman of fifty. NIRODBARAN: I'll tell you of some rare traits in her, her powers of judgment as well as of detachment. She had a dancing master. Her parents wanted to dismiss him because he was said to have a bad character. She wouldn't agree at all. Her argument was that character had nothing to do with teaching. But for all her position the parents did send the fellow away. And when he left she acted quite contrary to expectation. Although she had fought much for him, she seemed not the least put out by his dismissal. Then there is the incident of the death of her pet dog. When this animal, which she had loved intensely, died she remained perfectly calm. This set her mamma thinking that she didn't love the dog and also that she might not be loving her even and would one day leave her for the Ashram. SRI AUROBINDO: Her parents have found out it would be difficult to bend her to their will. She on her side has found out they keep lying to her. Page-139 NIRODBARAN: People say she is quite happy where she is at present. SRI AUROBINDO: How do they make that out? She wrote to us she was very unhappy outside. The talk then turned on the purge-trials in Russia by Stalin. SRI AUROBINDO: What Stalin wants is power-nothing else NIRODBARAN: Is there nothing in his allegations against Trotsky? SRI AUROBINDO: All that is not credible. Most probably Trotsky's followers wanted to get rid of Stalin by killing him but set about it in a clumsy way and so were killed by Stalin. Stalin has been able to get rid of almost everybody who had worked with Lenin. Litvinoff has managed to escape. I don't know what has happened to his wife. She was very anti-Stalin and could not be checked. One has heard of General Blucher and his trial but nothing afterwards. Stalin's parliament meets and talks and disperses. Whatever he and his party say is obeyed. PURANI: The confessions of the generals and others were so dramatic. SRI AUROBINDO: They made them to save their relatives probably. NIRODBARAN: Was Trotsky a better man than Stalin? SRI AUROBINDO: He was an idealist, at any rate. Then there was talk about Japan. Purani referred to the resignation of all the Japanese Ministers and related some general's declaration about a hundred years' war. SRI AUROBINDO: Oh, yes—to make the world civilised and to drive all the Europeans out of Asia! But it is very unusual for the Japanese to talk as this general has done. They never speak of anything beforehand. They get everything ready and act. Satyeyndra: What about India's freedom? It seems it will very long for her to be free from European rule. SRI AUROBINDO: Not necessarily. It seems to me she will not have to fight to get her freedom. She will get it without any fight. NIRODBARAN: How's that? Page-140 SRI AUROBINDO: That is the prophecy among the Sannyasis. NIRODBARAN: I remember Lee also spoke like that. SRI AUROBINDO: If India has to fight, she has no chance. But if some new power—Italy, for instance—were able to crush England effectively, as is very unlikely, India would have a chance. For then England wouldn't be able to hold India any more. NIRODBARAN: But that power itself or else some other like Japan can come and capture her again. SRI AUROBINDO: It can't be so easy. These powers are far away from India. For them it would be a great venture. Besides, one can't conquer a country only with a navy. The navy has to be supported by an army. If India has an army of her own, it will be difficult for any country to conquer her. But it wouldn't be safe at present to depend on outside help. When the Mother once asked a Japanese friend of hers whether Japan's navy would help India in case of war, he replied, "Don't trust Japan. If she once gets in, it will be hard to get her out." NIRODBARAN: India has no navy. SRI AUROBINDO: It can be built up after independence, though it may take time. PURANI: Even the Congress Ministers are not keeping to the policy of non-violence. They are planning and enforcing military training in the United Provinces, the Central Provinces, Bombay and Madras. PURANI: Sir Sikandar Hussain has tried to make a division of India into martial races, like those of the Punjab, and non-martial races. SRI AUROBINDO: That division was made by the British Government purposely to conquer and keep India down. They got the Pathans, Gurkhas and Punjabis to enter the army and make up the bulk of it. But every part of India had its empire in the past. AlI India can have military training and equipment in a short time. NIRODBARAN: But what about the Muslims? SRI AUROBINDO: The Muslims also don't want foreign rule. There is no doubt that the majority of prominent Muslims want independence. NIRODBARAN: The majority? SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. But they want Mohammedan independence. Even Jinnah wants independence. He has said it many Page-141 times. I don't think the Muslims would prefer foreign domination to independence. If India had the proper equipment, it would be quite a job for other nations to conquer her. Look at Spain. The Spanish Government has no proper equipment and yet the civil war there is dragging on for years. It was different with the Abyssinians when the Italians attacked them. They were unorganised as well as poor in equipment. NIRODBARAN: If France gets Spain, it will be bad for England. SRI AUROBINDO: But worse for France. She could easily be cut off from her African colonies and surrounded on all sides. For England also it will be bad, as the Spanish may block the present passage to the East and she may have to go round the other way. By this spring the intention of the Axis powers will be known. In the meantime Italy is trying to manoeuvre Chamberlain to her side. NIRODBARAN: France depends too much on England. SRI AUROBINDO: She has to. She can't fight single-handed with Germany and Italy. Everybody knows that in case war breaks out Germany will side with Italy. NIRODBARAN: France can have Russia's help. SRI AUROBINDO: Not likely. First, she does not trust Russia Secondly, Russia is divided from France by almost the whole of Europe. Thirdly, the Russian navy is not strong. NIRODBARAN: Germany is taking revenge for the unjust peace-terms after the last war. SRI AUROBINDO: It's not exactly that. It was England who thrust Germany into power. She saw that France was getting powerful in Europe after the war. As is her usual self-interested policy, she raised Germany in order to create a balance of power, She didn't expect that Hitler would aim his gun at her. At one time France and England came almost to a point of rivalry. France tried to create a friendships with Italy by placating her and England made Mussolini an enemy by applying sanctions against Italy in Abyssinia. But she could not stop Italy from conquering Abyssinia. I have never seen such bankruptcy of English diplomacy before Since the war she has been following a most imbecile and weal policy. Page-142 NIRODBARAN: The papers say that Italy raised this Tunis Corsica cry to divert the attention of England and France from Spain. SRI AUROBINDO: What attention? What have they been doing for Spain? Nothing! Even Blum who is a socialist applied this policy of non-intervention in Spain during his premiership. Of course it is quite foolish for Italy to ask for Tunis or Corsica. No French politician can give them away against the wish of the people. The Italians have no chance here. One may as well ask for Wales and the Isle of Wight from England. Italy by this cry has, on the contrary, given a fright to the nationalists in Tunis and united them in favour of France. NIRODBARAN: America is also preparing enormously. Satyeyndra: She is not obliged to take part in European politics. SRI AUROBINDO: Perhaps Roosevelt has got secret information about hostile designs. It is not a question of meddling in European politics but of guarding against being eaten up. Those who remain behind will be eaten up at last. Some people in America understand this. All are not like Chamberlain. NIRODBARAN: The English fleet seems to be the strongest. SRI AUROBINDO: I can't say, but it is the most experienced. The Italian fleet is very well equipped, but it is difficult to predict how it will fare in actual war. It has not been tried and tested. NIRODBARAN: In a war, the future is likely to be decided in the air rather than on the sea. SRI AUROBINDO: No; the air can't decide a war. Aeroplanes can only be an aid, but the fate of a war will be decided on the sea. If the navy can be smashed, then you can blockade a nation and starve it out or throw it on its own limited resources while you can obtain resources everywhere. It is sea-power on which will depend the mastery over other nations. It is because of sea- power that England has been the ruler of the world for three centuries. France at one time had the lead in airpower, but she has lagged behind now because she foolishly stopped building aeroplanes. Page-143
Sri Aurobindo began the talk, suddenly breaking his silence. SRI AUROBINDO: There is something nice for you, Purani PURANI: For me? SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. A letter has come from America. addressed to Sri Aurobindo Ashram. The writer thinks the Ashram is a person. He writes, "I have heard that you are a great Yoga. I am also a Yoga. I have started to predict sporting events. I can go trance and know everything. If you agree to work in collaboration with me, we will share the profits. Let me know your terms. If don't want to take the money yourself, you can give it to the poor. Our collaboration will be a service to yourself, to me and to the poor." (Laughter) What do you say, Purani? You too can go into trance or send Nirodbaran into trance. NIRODBARAN: He will find me a hard nut! PURANI: If he goes into trance, I fear he may not come out looking at the heap of dollars. NIRODBARAN: And Purani will perhaps come out looking it? PURANI: No objection to sharing the profits—but no share of the losses! SRI AUROBINDO: All kinds of half-crazy people write from everywhere. I wonder how they get our address. Satyeyndra: It must be from the magazine in which Anilbaran wrote an article. SRI AUROBINDO: It may be the article, and perhaps Anilbaran wrote "Sri Aurobindo Ashram" under it, and people thought Ashram a person. Satyeyndra: The magazine in which he wrote is published by the Institute. Its founder has made good business in America. His work is a combination of business and Yoga. PURANI: Is it possible to predict sporting events? Satyeyndra: I know of an astrologer who made a lot of predictions about a cousin of mine, but most of them didn't come true. SRI AUROBINDO: I had a remarkable experience at Baroda It was not of astrology, but of thought-reading. My house- manager Page-144 Chhotalal took me to an astrologer. The man asked me to prepare four questions in my mind. One of the questions came and passed very swiftly through my mind and I hardly formulated it. But he not only read the other three questions but even this which had as good as escaped me. On the other hand, his astrological predictions were not correct. PURANI: Is anything being tried in America to get your works published? Did Vaun do anything? SRI AUROBINDO: No. The Americans are not easily attracted to profound things. The article an American wrote some time back on me was very superficial. But Nishtha (Miss Wilso) said that it was originally quite deep; the editor of the paper said it wouldn't do. He thought the Americans wouldn't be interested in such deep things. So he made it what it is. NIRODBARAN: Aren't the Americans open to new ideas? SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, but what they want is sensation and novelty. All I can say is that there are more people in America interested in these things than in Europe. In Europe also their numbers are increasing now. NIRODBARAN: But America is much taken up by the Ramakrishna Mission. One Bengali too has been a success. Somebody else from near Bombay made at one time a great name in Europe by his prophecies, but afterwards plenty of people started calling him a swindler. SRI AUROBINDO: Why swindler? Did he take money for his prophecies? Swindling is when one takes money for things one promises to do but doesn't do. If prophecies don't come true, that is not swindling. By the way, who is Purohit Swami? PURANI: I don't know. It is he who has translated the Upanishads with Yeats in the Belearic Islands and written some commentaries. In his writings he mentions some cases of levitation he has seen. SRI AUROBINDO: The only levitation I have heard of was of B, who insisted that his whole body had been raised. Another instance was that of a German who levitated by about six inches and then fell down with a thud. Satyeyndra: Some air-cushions should have been placed below. (Laughter) Page-145 Here the topic arose: "Can a sadhak or a Yogi have his life insured?Is it in consonance with the spirit of Yoga?" SRI AUROBINDO: Thakur Dayanand would have said "No. As I told you, he was always depending on God and didn't believe in storing things. Whatever he used to get he spent. If there was nothing, it meant that God wanted him to starve that day. His followers used to sing and dance — an excited expression of devotion, an emotional demonstration. Later on, he began to complain that his vital forces were being drawn out, and he turned gradually towards Knowledge. All his group had the faith that nothing bad could happen to them. In the shooting affairs, the police came when they were dancing and singing, and seeing them in such exaltation they went back. The disciples thought themselves invulnerable and invincible. Then the Government sent soldiers who broke down their demonstrations and arrested the people. Then their faith got shaken. Satyeyndra: How can the vital forces be drawn out when one is in contact with the Divine Consciousness? SRI AUROBINDO: The forces that support the work around one are quite different from the Divine Consciousness. I had an experience in the Guest House with a man of what may be called an intense type. He was a Maratha. He came to see me. When I came down I felt all around me forces of confusion and death. At once I gathered myself. He was surrounded by forces of disintegration and chaos. Such contacts are dangerous for those who are conscious but weak; their vital forces are drawn out by such people. If one is not conscious, such contacts are harmless. PURANI : I remember the telling phrase in which you described him: "a wild intensity of weakness". SRI AUROBINDO: These are the type of people who have great intensity but no solidity. After this, there was some talk about several examples of that type. From Sri Aurobindo's remarks the following characterisation of them in some detail may be made: SRI AUROBINDO: At times these people may do brilliant things, but what they do is still slight and has, as it were, no Page-146 body. They have a high opinion of themselves, but they are good only as lieutenants; by themselves they are nothing much. They always have to depend on someone, a group or a movement. And they can't contain themselves, either, and keep quiet: to keep quiet requires solidity. They are never steady. As soon as they achieve something, they give it up and pursue another line. This applies to their Yoga also. As a result, they have brilliant visions and experiences but no realisation. If the Mother puts her Force into them, they become ambitious, believe they can revolutionise the world and may even think of becoming Sri Aurobindo's right hand, replacing the Mother! There is in them a curious mixture of opposites: agnosticism and faith, for instance. And when they happen to be writers, such mixture makes their writings attractive. All in all, they are an interesting lot, even if not fit for Yoga or any substantial work. At least one can't feel dull in their company. There the talk ended. After an interval Nirodbaran asked a question about Sri Aurobindo's leg, which had still some defect after the accident of 24 November 1938. NIRODBARAN: Can yogic power remove this defect? SRI AUROBINDO: It ought to, but I haven't tried that sort of thing before.
Dr. Rao had come and, as usual, he commented on the usefulness of slings, splints, etc. Then he remarked: "Medicines are after all not the main thing. It is Nature that cures and medicines merely help Nature. " We had a small debate on the point. The Mother also was present. After Dr. Rao had left, Sri Aurobindo started speaking. SRI AUROBINDO: It is curious that doctors after long practice come to such conclusions as Dr. Rao has stated. A medical friend of the Mother's used to say that it is the doctor who heals and not his medicines. This is quite true. One must have an element of healing power. Medicines lend their properties to this power. Page-147 Without this power which is the main thing in a cure, medicines are of very little use. Satyeyndra: The ancient system in India recognised it as vital force. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. Even now in some universities in the south of France-for example, Montpelier which is a famous university there-they admit this vital force. This is because the south of France as well as Spain came much under Arab influence. The vital force theory may come back everywhere. At one time physical science claimed to explain everything according to its laws. Now they admit they can explain nothing. PURANI: The law of causality which once allowed no exception is now said to be not absolute. The physicists can't determine the causes of phenomena in every case because in trying to observe the phenomena they interfere with the process and thus vitiate it. This they now call indeterminacy. SRI AUROBINDO: The attempts of scientists like Jeans and Eddington to find Reality by science are futile. You can't found metaphysics on physical science; for, when you have built your philosophy, after some thirty years or so science will change and your building will tumble down. All you can say is that certain conclusions of science agree with and correspond to certain conclusions of metaphysics. You can't make metaphysics depend on physics. PURANI: The Continental scientists have now refused to build philosophy on science. They say it is not their business to explain but only to lay bare the process. Eddington says in his Gifford Lectures that the human mind, the subject, ultimately accepts one conclusion out of a number of conclusions not because of the nature of objective reality but because of the nature of the observing subject. That 8+8=16 and not 61 points to some correspondence in the material world to the movement of the thinking mind. SRI AUROBINDO: It is the accumulated experience- the invariable experience-that gives that sense. Man has found by putting 8 and 8 together that it makes 16. PURANI: Again, in regard to the rainbow, the scientist study the wave-lengths of light while the poets make a play imagination over it. We have no means of saying that the real rainbow exists for the scientist and not for the poet. Page-148 SRI AUROBINDO: I should say it exists for neither. Only the scientists get excited over the process and the poets over the result. PURANI: Eddington also admits that we have no ground to say that non-scientific knowledge and experience are less real than physical science. SRI AUROBINDO: Of course not. PURANI: Did you read Spengler's Decline of the West? It is a huge volume and deals with many things. SRI AUROBINDO: No, I haven't read it. What is the upshot of its argument? PURANI : The upshot is that time is not a mental entity. It has a direction, a tendency. It tends to produce certain events. It points to destiny, a recurring pattern which the sum of forces inevitably leads to. On the data of human history Spengler believes that there have been cycles in the life of the human race when cultures have arisen, reached a zenith and then declined. From a study of these cultures it is possible to predict the decline of every human culture. European culture at present is full of symptoms of decline and therefore it is bound to decline. The signs of decline are the rise of big cities, impoverishment of the countryside, capitalism, etc. He says that to classify history as Primitive, Mediaeval and Modern is not correct. We must study universal history and that, too, impersonally. Again, within the recurring pattern, a culture has its own characteristic aspects. The mathematical discoveries, for instance, that are seen in a particular culture are organically connected with that culture. The Greeks could never have arrived at the conception of the series—regularly increasing or decreasing numbers leading to infinite number. The series-idea is only possible in modern culture. He goes so far as to maintain that even if you grant that Napoleon's rise could have been prevented by some causes, still the events that came as a consequence of his career would have followed inevitably because they were destined. SRI AUROBINDO: I don't quite understand. Even granting that there is destiny, why can't it be changed? How can Spengler say that even if Napoleon had not existed the results of his rise would inevitably have followed? It is a very debatable proposition. I believe the results would have naturally varied. Page-149 If he had not risen at the time, the European powers would have crushed French democracy. What he did was to stabilise the French Revolution so that the world got the idea of democracy. Otherwise it would have been delayed by two or three centuries. Again, as to destiny, what is meant by it? It is a word that can have several meanings. Is destiny a working of inert blind material forces? In that case there is no room for choice. You have to end up by accepting Shankara's Mayavada or rank materialism. But if you mean by destiny that there is a Will at work in the universe, then a choice in action becomes possible. Once more, when Spengler speaks of cycles, there is some truth in the idea but it is not possible to make a rigid rule about the recurrence of the cycles. These cycles are plastic and need not be all of the same duration. In the recent Aryan Path a Mr. Morris has written an interesting article, full of facts and based on a study of historical data. In it he tries to show that human destiny has always a cycle of five hundred years. And do you know his conclusion? He believes that there are Mahatmas who manage the world! Besides, the extension of mathematical numbers to infinity was well known in India long ago; and I don't understand why the classification of historical epochs into Primitive, Mediaeval and Modern is incorrect. Does he mean that there are no differences or that the differences of epochs are to be overlooked? (After some time) In a philosopher it is not the process of reasoning that is important, for he blinds himself to everything else in order to arrive at his conclusion. Therefore what you have to do is to take his conclusions and even in taking the conclusions you have to accept the essentials and not the words or the inessentials. For instance, there is some truth, as I said, in Spengler's idea of destiny—also in his idea of cycles. All the rest is not material to us. What is destiny? It can't be the work of the individual. Then you have to accept that it is the working out of a Cosmic Will. And then the question is whether the Cosmic Will is free or bound. If it is free, it is no longer a blind determinism and even when you find there is "no progress", yet that Will is working itself out in evolution. If, on the other hand, you accept that the Cosmic Will is bound, the question is: "Bound by whom or by what?" Page-150 There is something like a cycle. This means there is a curve in the movement of Nature that seems to repeat itself But that too is not to be taken rigidly. It is something that answers the need of evolution and can vary. PURANI: Probably something in a man's mind has already accepted the conclusions, unknown to the man himself, and it is by his reasoning that he seems to arrive at them. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, it is something unknown to the surface consciousness of course! Then, again, the human ego comes in. It is so limited that it thinks the contribution it brings to human thought is the only truth and all who differ or conflict with it are wrong. We can turn round and say that a man was destined to think as he thought and thus to bring his contribution to the process of evolution. But it is easy to see that the process of evolution is universal and human evolution cannot be bound down to a set of philosophical ideas or rules of practice. No epoch, no individual, no group has the monopoly of truth. It is the same with religion- Christian, Mohammedan, etc. PURANI: I don't think such a wide view is possible unless one reaches the Universal Mind. SRI AUROBINDO: Not necessarily. One can see this much while remaining human. PURANI: Wells perhaps speaks something similar when he says that all knowledge must now become "human". SRI AUROBINDO: That is another matter. He means "internationalism". All science is already international and much of literature and other realms of ideas are so too. What does Spengler say about the future—after the decline of the West? PURANI: He dismisses China and India as countries whose cultures are useless now. SRI AUROBINDO: Then we have the Arabs. PURANI: Not even the Arabs. They are also effete. SRI AUROBINDO: Then the Africans remain, and the Abyssinians. PURANI: I think his hope is in the Americans and the Africans. Satyeyndra: But America goes with the West. So we are left only with the Africans. (Laughter) Page-151 PURANI: It is very curious that Spengler misses the fact that there can be resurgence and reawakening. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. Take China, for instance. There were always cities in China—from the most ancient times. The Chinese are a peculiar race—always disturbed and always the same. If you study their history two thousand years back you will find they were in disturbance and yet they had their culture. The Tartar king who tried to destroy their culture by burning their books didn't succeed. And I wouldn't be surprised if after the present turmoil you find them two-thousand years hence what they are today. That is the character of the race. When you follow the course of history you may find there is a certain destiny which represents the sum of physical forces. That is one destiny. And when that tends to go round and round in an infinite circuit you find that there is a tendency which seems inevitable in the movement. But the question is: Are physical forces the only determinants of destiny? Or is there anything else—something more than physical that can intervene and influence the course of the movement? We find that there have been such inrushes of forces in history and the action of these inrushes has been to change the destiny indicated by the physical forces; it has changed in fact the course of human history. Take for an example the rise of the Arabs, A small uncivilised race living in arid deserts suddenly rises up and changes completely the course of history. That is an inrush of forces. PURANI: Thinkers like Emerson and Shaw believe that human beings have not made any substantial progress in their powers of reasoning since the Greeks. — SRI AUROBINDO: It is quite true. Of course, you have today a vaster field and more ample material than the Greeks had, but in the handling of them the present-day mind is not superior to the Greek mind with its more limited field and material. PURANI: Emerson writing about Plato, says that he has been the epitome of the European mind for the last two thousand years or more. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, the European mind got everything from the Greeks and owes everything to them. Every branch of knowledge in which human curiosity could be interested has been, Page-152 given to Europe by the Greeks—even archaeology. The Romans could legislate and fight, they could keep the state together, but they made the Greeks think for them. Of course the Greeks could fight also but not always so well. Take the Roman thinkers—Lucretius, Cicero, Seneca, all owe their philosophy to the Greeks. That, again, is an illustration of what I was saying about the inrush of forces. Consider a small race like the Greeks, living on a small projecting tongue of land. It was able to build up a culture that has given everything essential to your modern European culture and that in a span of two or three hundred years only! Of course, the Greeks didn't create everything. They got much from Egypt, Crete and Asia. PURANI : The number of artists they produced was remarkable. SRI AUROBINDO: They had a sense of beauty. Their life was beautiful. The one thing that modern Europe has not taken from the Greeks is beauty. You can't say modern Europe is beautiful. In fact, it is ugly. What can be said of ancient Greece can be said also of ancient India. She had beauty, which she has since lost. The Japanese are the only race that can be said to have preserved beauty in their life. But now even they are fast losing it under European influence. The setback to the human mind in Europe is amazing. As I said, no one set of ideas can monopolise Truth and from that point of view all these efforts of Hitler and Mussolini and Stalin to bottle up the human soul in a narrow mould of ideas is absurd. We had thought during the last years of the nineteenth century that the human mind had attained a certain level of intelligence and that it would have to be satisfied before any new idea could find acceptance. But it seems one can't rely on common sense to stand the strain. We find Nazi ideas being accepted; fifty years back it would have been impossible to predict their acceptance. Then, again, the way the intellectuals accept psychoanalysis is surprising. Krishna Prem (Ronald Nixon) is afraid that psychoanalysis will drive out or kill spirituality because it claims to explain away many spiritual things. Satyeyndra: People believe anything that is uncommon. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, it is as in the old dictum: "I believe because it is absurd." Page-153 These Nazi ideas are infra-rational. It is because they are not all rational that they are considered as inspiration. They are even called mystical. They are really nothing but narrow-pointed impulses rising from the lower being. But perhaps this rise of the infra-rational has been necessary in order that the supra-rational may be accepted and that reason may not be able to offer as obstruction to it. The infra-rational also has a truth; it is necessary for the proper understanding of things. You can't know the world unless you know the part which the infra-rational plays. NIRODBARAN: Do you mean by the infra-rational all that man has inherited from the animal? SRI AUROBINDO: Not only that. Man has accused the animal for nothing. In the infrarational are also included the Rakshasa and the Asura. Man has always been speaking of the animal, the Pashu in a superior way. But take the dog's faithfulness and affection. These qualities are universal among dogs. But even when they are found among men, you can't say the same. PURANI: Mrs. Pinto, the English wife of a friend, told me that she was surprised to find that the cow in India is so mild and docile. In England, it seems, it may attack men. SRI AUROBINDO: Most animals kill only for food; there are very few that are inherently ferocious. Even snakes don't attack unless they are frightened. There was a variety of maneless lion in America — the Puma- that would have been friendly to man. Of course it had to live and so killed animals.. But the Americans have been killing it- nearly exterminating it. Most of the wild animals don't kill man unless they find that he is dangerous. That's what happen in Africa. Man begins to shoot them down and they turn against him. In Africa the State had to legislate to prevent the extermination of certain animals. Otherwise people would have killed them off for sport. You can't say man kills only when he is compelled. And yet we cannot declare man has made no progress. True, the philosopher today is not superior to Plato, but there are many who can philosophise today, also many more who can understand philosophy than in Plato's time. And throughout the course of history a small minority has been carrying the torch to save humanity in spite of itself. Page-154 NIRODBARAN: In the Hindustan Standard there is a remarkable story about some Somesh Bose. His wife, dead for twenty years, has been brought back bodily to him, alive again, and is doing sadhana with him. The man who performed the miracle is a Yogi named Bhola Giri. This Yogi also comes every evening to bless the pair. The paper asks: "What will Western materialists say to this?" SRI AUROBINDO: They will say it is all humbug. Satyeyndra: What does Yoga have to say? SRI AUROBINDO: There are many possibilities. NIRODBARAN: But is it at all possible to create like this in new flesh and blood? SRI AUROBINDO: What is meant by flesh and blood? Does Somesh Bose's wife live all the time with him or does she come only for a few hours and then go away? If the latter, it looks like a temporary materialisation, and that is quite possible. Bhola Giri obviously knows how to do it and has done it for his disciple. As to permanent materialisation, theoretically it is not impossible, but I haven't heard of any case. Well, if stones can be materialised, as in "the famous incident of our Guest House, I don't see why human beings cannot. When materialisation takes place, it is most often immediately before death or after. The man in question visits some friend or relative, and if the dying condition or the death is not known to them or the man is not known to be living far away, people mistake his appearance for actual physical presence. There are many such well-attested cases. My brother Manmohan used to say he had heard from Stephen Phillips that the latter's mother visited him when she was on her death-bed at a distant place. But my brother was a poet, you must remember —very imaginative. And, moreover, he was a friend of Oscar Wilde. (Laughter) People say that one telepathises a mental idea and this makes the person appear. It can't be a mere projection of form by the mind only. There is also the vital-physical part that materialises. PURANI: Paul Brunton writes that when he was in Egypt he met near a hill an ancient Egyptian who had died thousands of years ago and had been mummified. Brunton talked with him. Page-155 SRI AUROBINDO: What happened afterwards to the Egyptian? PURANI: I believe he went back to the hill. SRI AUROBINDO: Then one can't say what exactly happened? The Egyptians held that at the time of death the Ka or vital being goes out of the body and after many years can return to it if preserved. That is the tradition behind mummification. Perhaps Brunton materialised the tradition? (Laughter) PURANI: Brunton cites the instance of a dead sparrow being revived by an Egyptian. NIRODBARAN: He says that of Vishuddhananda also. The sparrow was killed in his presence and it was revived. Is it possible? SRI AUROBINDO: Quite possible. Can't you revive a drowned man up to a certain time by physical devices? So, if one knows how, one can restore life in other cases too. One reintroduces power and sets the organs to action. There are two ways: the first is to bring back the same spirit which is still not far away, and the second is to bring another spirit which wants to enter earth-life At this point the Mother came in with a telegram requesting Aurobindo to send "ashes" for the marriage of somebody's daughter. The Mother and Sri Aurobindo could not make out what was meant. PURANI: It may be the Indian word "ashis", meaning "blessing". SRI AUROBINDO: Oh, I see. I was wondering how I am supposed to carry ashes about with me- perhaps on my head. Of course I can give them some from Champaklal's mosquito coils. If I had not given up smoking, I could have given some cigar ash. Telegraphic misrepresentations are common. There is Chand's recent wire. NIRODBARAN: Yes, the telegram read "Nirodasram" instead of Nirodbaran". CHAMPAKLAL: When is Chand coming here? NIRODBARAN: Soon after "arranging his affairs". SRI AUROBINDO: Is he still "arranging"? CHAMPAKLAL: Has he much property? NIRODBARAN: He has lost everything. SRI AUROBINDO: And yet he is "arranging" it? He is phenomenon. Page-156 Now the Mother left for the general meditation. SRI AUROBINDO: Nirodbaran, do you know the name of the man who apologised to us for having written a book against us? NIRODBARAN: Apologised? Who's that? SRI AUROBINDO: Some relative of X, I think. NIRODBARAN: Oh, yes, I remember. The father. He criticised the Ashram in that book. SRI AUROBINDO: Merely criticised? Didn't he attack my character and say that I was taking money from people? That charge, at any rate, won't do with people, for they know? I gave up everything for the country and I couldn't have fallen so low now. The writer seems to have gathered all sorts of false information. This sort of public attack doesn't have any effect, for nobody knows the writer. But if someone well-known, say, Radhakrishnan, attacked my philosophy, it may attract some attention. Talking back may be effective for a time, but the best thing is to leave the attackers alone. They soon get forgotten. Anilbaran has criticised the book we are speaking of. NIRODBARAN: Have you read the book? SRI AUROBINDO: I glanced through it. The author had sent a typed copy. I don't think more than half a dozen copies of the book could have been sold. He seems to have lost all his money. PURANI: Some Gujaratis are also attacking the Ashram. SRI AUROBINDO: But why? What is their grievance? PURANI: They say we are not doing anything for the country or for humanity. SRI AUROBINDO: Since when has the Ashram been expected to do such things? NIRODBARAN: The Ramakrishna Mission and Gandhi's Ashram are doing social or political work. SRI AUROBINDO: Gandhi's Ashram is not an Ashram for spirituality. It is a group of people gathered to be trained in some work or other. But are we attacked because we are not doing anything for the country and humanity or because I who did national work once have left it now? PURANI: Perhaps more because of the latter reason. NIRODBARAN: Subhas Bose also attacked the Ashram on the same plea. He said to Dilip that some of the best people were going away to the Ashram Page-157 SRI AUROBINDO: Did he include Dilip among the best people? NIRODBARAN: I don't remember whether he said "best people" or just "good people". But he was much grieved at losing them. SRI AUROBINDO : But Dilip was not doing political work. I was doing music. NIRODBARAN: Subhas said he could go on with music for certain time, but when the hour strikes he must be prepared to give up everything. SRI AUROBINDO: I see — and one can't give up everything for God, I suppose? PURANI: He must have meant "give up everything and go jail". SRI AUROBINDO (shaking his head and looking at the ceiling}: Jail? I can't picture Dilip in jail. (Laughter) PURANI: The two don't go well together. Satyeyndra: Perhaps he would have written some new about jail afterwards. SRI AUROBINDO: Many things don't go well together and yet they do happen. One could hardly think of Oscar Wilde in jail and yet he went there. The only thing such people do is to write immortal books in jail. There is Wilde's De Profundis, for instance When the French heard of Wilde's imprisonment, they said about the English people: "Comme ils sont bêtes!" ("How stupid they are ) At the time of the Gandhi movement, someone asked Abanindranath Tagore to give up painting and take to politics. He answered, "I am serving the country through my art. Painting is at least something I know well, but I would be a very bad politician. Now Purani brought in the topic of new buildings going up at Baroda near the railway station, etc.
SRI AUROBINDO: The thought of Baroda (pause for a time) brings to my mind my first connection with the Gaekwar. It. is strange how things arrange themselves at times. When I failed in the I.C.S. riding test and was looking for a job, the Gaekwar happened to be in London. I don't remember whether he called us or we met him. We consulted an authority about the pay we should propose. We had no idea about these things. He said we could propose Rs. 200, but should accept even 130, for that was Page-158 quite a good sum. He was calculating according to the pound which was equivalent to Rs. 13; so he took ten pounds as a quite good sum. I left the negotiations to my eldest brother and James Cotton. The Gaekwar went about telling people that he had got a Civil Service man for Rs. 200. (Laughter) But Cotton ought to have known better. NIRODBARAN: How much were your monthly expenses? SRI AUROBINDO: Five pounds. It was quite sufficient at that rime. What is the expense now? NIRODBARAN: Ten pounds is the bare minimum in Edinburgh. SRI AUROBINDO: Our landlady was an angel. She was long suffering and never asked for money. For months and months we didn't pay. I wonder how she managed. It was from the I.C.S. stipend that I paid her afterwards. She came from Somerset and settled in London as a landlady. My failure in the I.C.S. riding test was a disappointment to my father, for he had arranged everything for me through Sir Henry Cotton. He had arranged to get me posted at Arrah which was regarded as a very fine place and near Sir Henry. He had requested him to look after me. I wonder what would have happened if I had joined the Civil service. I think they would have chucked me out for laziness and arrears of work. Here the topic changed to Gandhism. SRI AUROBINDO: Gandhi's demilitarisation doesn't seem to meet with much success. PURANI: Exactly. Nana Sahib also spoke against non-violence the other day while presiding over a conference of young men at Baroda. Do you know him? SRI AUROBINDO: Oh, yes, I know him very well. He, Madhavrao and I were the first revolutionary group and wanted to drive out the English. PURANI: It's good he protested against demilitarisation. SRI AUROBINDO: Has Gandhi succeeded in disarming the Frontier Pathans? PURANI: When he went there, he objected to armed volunteers keeping guard over him. Page-159 |